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Good read. For the condensed version just read the last few pages. I agree with everything he says about the current system being very outdated. Time to step it up
 

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I agree with his conclusions. I think this war we've been in for the past 8 years has shown us a lot about the 556's deficiencies. The distances of the terrain of afghanistan and the built up urban terrain of baghdad both bring out the worst in the 556.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
nonnieselman said:
M1 Garand anybody? :suspect:
That should take care of alot of the multiple shots to stop a taliban.
Garand +1!!
 

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I was talkin to a good friend of mine that use to be in the USMC, he served a few tours in the sand box and other places. He told me what he would have done to have a Garand over there...I agreed :gun:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
surehuntsalot said:
need to bring back the M14
They are actually doing that is some places!!
 
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I agree somewhat with the article. I think an new intermediate cartridge is a good idea, but I fear proper field testing of multiple platforms will be overlooked based on the same politics that landed us the M9/92FS Beretta. In my opinion the Arms Room solution is the best way to go, but there will be several constraints. One, this means soldiers have to qualify on more weapon systems and optics. The result will be more of a jack of all trades on the weapon systems and less subject matter experts. The other challenge will be funding. Range time cost money. The Army has repeatedly turned to simulators to meet this short fall. You'll find them for everything from pistols to tank gunnery. Nothing beats real range time dealing with fatigue and environmental conditions. Soldiers must fire their weapons in wind and rain to understand how the conditions effect their optics/sights and where the rounds will actually land.

We also have to account for our current equipment loadouts. For everyone wanting the garand and M14 to come back in a big way I challenge you to gear up in the current battle rattle. The current IBAS (thanks to CNN) has 4 plates. Many soldiers are also having to wear DAPS and Shoulder Pads. Now add your basic ammo load, NVG's, First Aid Kit (very bulky), and and assortment of the following: a couple of radios, smoke, flares, grenades, seat belt cutter, DAGR or PLGR, compass, laser range finder, Tripod, T&E, grenade launcher, binos, breach kit, crew served ammo (everyone gets a piece of that), spare barrels and a ruck or assault pack with even more crap. Ever see the kid from "A Christmas Story" after his mom dressed him to go outside, that's how a modern Infantryman feels on the battlefield. Don't forget all the guchi gear on our carbines: BUIS, Optic (CCO, EOTECH or ACOG), PEQ 15, Surefire. You might have an M203 with the fancy new laser sight. You would be amazed at the looks of terror from senior leaders when you start pulling gear off and throwing it in a connex to get soldiers down to a reasonable load for an 8 hour dismounted patrol. So you can see why I would prefer a smaller lighter rifle over the M14 or Garand.

In the meantime their are some fixes the military could immediately introduce to improve the function of our carbines and effectiveness of our soldiers. CLP does not belong in a desert environment. I used Militech for two tours to Iraq. Never once had a malfunction. My entire company used it both times even tough the Army says we shouldn't. It's basically a dry lube. It would be nice if boresnakes were issued so we didn't have to buy our own (they can be ordered through SAMS-E, but it costs the unit). Most of the dirty weapons I've seen come from POGs so I won't address that. The other thing that needs to immediately change is our qualification tables. The 300 meter popup range is good, but we zero and go straight to the qual range. It needs to be a requirement to zero (preferably at 50 meters instead of the current 25m), then spend time on a 25 meter range working on groups. Next should be a know distance range so soldiers can confirm zeros and see where their rounds land out to 500 meters. Next is the qual range, here we should engage moving targets in addition to the pop-up targets. I've never seen haji stand around waiting to get shot! It amazes me to go to Tank and Bradley Gunnery and get to engage moving targets, but never on a rifle range (unless you are a Marine).
 
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Methos said:
I agree with his conclusions. I think this war we've been in for the past 8 years has shown us a lot about the 556's deficiencies. The distances of the terrain of afghanistan and the built up urban terrain of baghdad both bring out the worst in the 556.
I don't know if I would agree about baghdad, from the streets it's a crewserved fight, once indoors the 5.56 is king. It's really a CQC fight there.
 

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Edited because "Nothing" covered my points.

Weight is a huge factor. .308 is not the solution to every problem.

And how can you POSSIBLY call the M4 outdated and then turn around and suggest the Garand?

Oh I have a great idea. We should all go back to the Krag-Jorgensen like real men!!

Sarcasm: off.
 

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Understanding tactics in different theaters of operation will dictate what the rifle should be capable of. A mission adaptable rifle of modern design in my opinion should be in order. I agree that the 308 is not the answer to all problems. I have seen the load an indivdual Marine has to carry, and loaded it up on myself. I don't see how they do it now. Adding weight to the load out in my opinion is not an option. Different medium range cartridges may offer some advantages the 6.5 Grendal, and the 6.8 SPC. The ranges these rounds can cover would out distance the 5.56 by fair margin. Something that offers caliber change capability by an operater or unit armoror. These systems exist already!
 
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