I'm seriously considering buying my first full auto and am looking at an SWD M11/9. I'm planning on putting a Lage upper on it and eventually a .22 LR upper. I'm also planning on running it suppressed most of the time. Looking for advice and personal experience - anything I should pay special attention to or look out for? Any words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
Buying my first submachine gun
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BEWARE ! ! ! One full-auto is never enough......... 
I have a Lage MAX-10 on my MAC-10 45acp. Lage products are the BEST. Richard is a nice guy to deal with. He wants his products to be perfect......
I don't own a SWD M11/9, so I really can't offer too much advise..... I do know you want an M11/9 that has the back plate fully welded, not tack welded.
I do own one of the original "M-11s". The MAC M-11 380acp (aka: Baby MAC).
SWD M11/9s are good FAs and one of the cheapest to get started in the full-auto world with.
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I have a Lage MAX-10 on my MAC-10 45acp. Lage products are the BEST. Richard is a nice guy to deal with. He wants his products to be perfect......
I don't own a SWD M11/9, so I really can't offer too much advise..... I do know you want an M11/9 that has the back plate fully welded, not tack welded.
I do own one of the original "M-11s". The MAC M-11 380acp (aka: Baby MAC).
SWD M11/9s are good FAs and one of the cheapest to get started in the full-auto world with.
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Yep, what he said and lage is the best along with their 22lr uppers! The mags for th .22 are expensive at 40 a pop though. Make sure you run a f/a can on it and perfrrably a 3lug also.
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There are no tack welded SWD receivers whether it's their M11/9, M11A1, or their completed MAC-10s.
When RPB went Tango Umbrella, James Leatherwood of Stephansville, Texas bought the remaining inventory of frames, uppers, parts, and pieces at auction. He made a few "improvements" and began producing what we now refer to as the Texas Mac. These were the only MAcs ever spot welded and most have been repaired over time. When Leatherwood went out of business, SWD purchased his remaining inventory of receivers and parts and completed them using Tig welding. The SWD MAC-10 9mms use the same magazine as the SWD M11/9. If there's a down side to the M11/9, it's the magazines. Good alternatives to the factory Zytels mags are available but may need tweaking.
MACs just don't suppress very well, but if your plan is to run the MAX-11 suppressed then you'll want a high volume can to minimize the blow back of gas in your face. Due to the MAX-11 design, gas "leaks" around the rear of the gun.
These two sites have more information on the MAC family of firearms than all others combined. Lots of good reading to get you started on your full auto adventure.
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82
http://www.mac-11.net/
There are more SWD M11/9s than any other transferable title two subgun. There are also more accessories made for this gun than all other MACs combined.
Richard Lage's products are truly excellent. I owned the 9th MAX-11 receiver ever produced and was a Beta tester for the double feed MAX-11 upper which I still own today. I've had enough of full auto .22LR so I passed on his conversion.
I demonstrated both the SCA Soumi upper and Lage MAX-11 double feed uppers that were featured in this publication. VERY interesting reading!
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When RPB went Tango Umbrella, James Leatherwood of Stephansville, Texas bought the remaining inventory of frames, uppers, parts, and pieces at auction. He made a few "improvements" and began producing what we now refer to as the Texas Mac. These were the only MAcs ever spot welded and most have been repaired over time. When Leatherwood went out of business, SWD purchased his remaining inventory of receivers and parts and completed them using Tig welding. The SWD MAC-10 9mms use the same magazine as the SWD M11/9. If there's a down side to the M11/9, it's the magazines. Good alternatives to the factory Zytels mags are available but may need tweaking.
MACs just don't suppress very well, but if your plan is to run the MAX-11 suppressed then you'll want a high volume can to minimize the blow back of gas in your face. Due to the MAX-11 design, gas "leaks" around the rear of the gun.
These two sites have more information on the MAC family of firearms than all others combined. Lots of good reading to get you started on your full auto adventure.
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82
http://www.mac-11.net/
There are more SWD M11/9s than any other transferable title two subgun. There are also more accessories made for this gun than all other MACs combined.
Richard Lage's products are truly excellent. I owned the 9th MAX-11 receiver ever produced and was a Beta tester for the double feed MAX-11 upper which I still own today. I've had enough of full auto .22LR so I passed on his conversion.
I demonstrated both the SCA Soumi upper and Lage MAX-11 double feed uppers that were featured in this publication. VERY interesting reading!
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I've owned both.
A NIB is only worth the extra $400.00 premium if you plan to lock it up in your safe. If you plan to shoot this gun even once, then buy used. The first time you pull the trigger you'll lose the NIB premium you paid. I'd take that money and buy mags, ammo, MAX-11 upper, suppressor, etc.
IMHO, these guns are worth no more than 3K delivered to your dealer. Shop around and you'll find the gun you're looking for at that price.
A NIB is only worth the extra $400.00 premium if you plan to lock it up in your safe. If you plan to shoot this gun even once, then buy used. The first time you pull the trigger you'll lose the NIB premium you paid. I'd take that money and buy mags, ammo, MAX-11 upper, suppressor, etc.
IMHO, these guns are worth no more than 3K delivered to your dealer. Shop around and you'll find the gun you're looking for at that price.
Awesome Vegas - that really helps - thanks for your advice. I'll probably go with the used model, then.
I understand the receivers don't really wear out. Is this correct or is there a lifetime/round count I should keep in mind? I've read they are good for "thousands" or rounds, but don't know how to interpret that. 3,000? 30,000? etc.
I understand the receivers don't really wear out. Is this correct or is there a lifetime/round count I should keep in mind? I've read they are good for "thousands" or rounds, but don't know how to interpret that. 3,000? 30,000? etc.
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Just keep a fresh buffer in the gun and it will last MANY 10s of thousands of rounds. Buffers are cheap..... $2-3 each. If you do crack a weld, no big deal, just reweld and refinish. The receiver is just sheet metal.
If you look around..... you should be able to find a M11/9 in the $2,500 range.
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If you look around..... you should be able to find a M11/9 in the $2,500 range.
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325 Posts
SGF is correct about the receiver wear. I put somewhere in the range of 20,000 rounds through my Uzi and the receiver is much the same as the M11/9... Folded sheet metal. I'm probably close to ten thousand rounds through my current M11/9 with no visible signs of lower receiver wear.
SGF is also correct about the buffers. They're cheap insurance against heavy bolt contact with the rear of the registered receiver which will eventually break the welds. Go with neoprene rather than black rubber buffers which don't last long in my experience. In any case, I'd replace the buffer on any gun I bought before firing it.
The entire MAC family of subguns are extremely simple with very few parts to break or go bad. If you do have any issues, Sam Snyder of Practical Solutions is considered the MAC Guru when it comes to MAC trouble shooting and repair. I had Sam refinish one of my M11/9s and the work and turnaround time was great. http://www.practicalpage.com/
The parts to watch out for on the M11/9 are these.
The hockey puck style charging knobs can break off during firing. Mine whacked me in the fore head when it let go.
The wire form stocks can fold up during firing. This is a dangerous condition with the M11/9s but it also happens on the thicker MAC-10 stocks. (SGF, ask Chad about his folding up on him during a mag dump!)
Some 1986 built guns don't have hardened parts. This may be the biggest advantage in buying a used gun as hopefully all the bugs have been worked out. The bolt sear catch notch rounded off on my first M11/9 and resulted in a runaway gun. I've personally witnessed two others have the same problem.Soft sears can also be a problem. I've never had a bit of trouble out of my 2nd 1986 built gun and it's serial number isn't that far away from my first. In fact, it's serial number was higher so there's really no good way to tell.
The selector shaft also serves as the sear axis pin and it takes a lot of pounding. I've never broken one, but it happens occasionally.
I've got a Practical Solutions Mini Uzi style side folder that's rock solid and I use that on my M11/9 when I'm shooting the OEM 1,384 RPM upper. I'd also ditch the front strap in favor of a rigid K-grip to help control the gun in "stock" configuration, but that's me.
I wouldn't order any extra parts thinking they'll break with the exception of extra buffers and maybe a different stock. I would order the MAX-11 upper at the same time you buy the gun. You probably won't shoot the M11/9 in stock configuration all that much after you have the slow fire upper.
I watch the ad boards pretty close and I haven't seen an M11/9 for $2,500 in a long time. That's not to say you won't find one, but anything under 3k is a deal IMHO.
Check Subguns ad board and consider spending five bucks to place a WTB ad.
http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/?db=nfafirearms&category=All+Items+in+this+Category&query=category&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=headlines
Sturmgewehr is another board worth watching.
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi
Happy hunting!
SGF is also correct about the buffers. They're cheap insurance against heavy bolt contact with the rear of the registered receiver which will eventually break the welds. Go with neoprene rather than black rubber buffers which don't last long in my experience. In any case, I'd replace the buffer on any gun I bought before firing it.
The entire MAC family of subguns are extremely simple with very few parts to break or go bad. If you do have any issues, Sam Snyder of Practical Solutions is considered the MAC Guru when it comes to MAC trouble shooting and repair. I had Sam refinish one of my M11/9s and the work and turnaround time was great. http://www.practicalpage.com/
The parts to watch out for on the M11/9 are these.
The hockey puck style charging knobs can break off during firing. Mine whacked me in the fore head when it let go.
The wire form stocks can fold up during firing. This is a dangerous condition with the M11/9s but it also happens on the thicker MAC-10 stocks. (SGF, ask Chad about his folding up on him during a mag dump!)
Some 1986 built guns don't have hardened parts. This may be the biggest advantage in buying a used gun as hopefully all the bugs have been worked out. The bolt sear catch notch rounded off on my first M11/9 and resulted in a runaway gun. I've personally witnessed two others have the same problem.Soft sears can also be a problem. I've never had a bit of trouble out of my 2nd 1986 built gun and it's serial number isn't that far away from my first. In fact, it's serial number was higher so there's really no good way to tell.
The selector shaft also serves as the sear axis pin and it takes a lot of pounding. I've never broken one, but it happens occasionally.
I've got a Practical Solutions Mini Uzi style side folder that's rock solid and I use that on my M11/9 when I'm shooting the OEM 1,384 RPM upper. I'd also ditch the front strap in favor of a rigid K-grip to help control the gun in "stock" configuration, but that's me.
I wouldn't order any extra parts thinking they'll break with the exception of extra buffers and maybe a different stock. I would order the MAX-11 upper at the same time you buy the gun. You probably won't shoot the M11/9 in stock configuration all that much after you have the slow fire upper.
I watch the ad boards pretty close and I haven't seen an M11/9 for $2,500 in a long time. That's not to say you won't find one, but anything under 3k is a deal IMHO.
Check Subguns ad board and consider spending five bucks to place a WTB ad.
http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/?db=nfafirearms&category=All+Items+in+this+Category&query=category&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=headlines
Sturmgewehr is another board worth watching.
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi
Happy hunting!
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I have noticed a few max 11 /mac11 packages for sale around 4500 =/- with a can, just rember to tack on $200 more for the transfer if out of state on a form 4 "form 3 is dealer to daler and free" also add on the usual $100 or so for your sot's transfer fee.
I would stay away from the sten mag converted macs also for reliabilty reasons unless they have been fixed from previous years. Also someone may be able to answer this, but do the mac's with the stem conversion function with the max11 uppers?
I would stay away from the sten mag converted macs also for reliabilty reasons unless they have been fixed from previous years. Also someone may be able to answer this, but do the mac's with the stem conversion function with the max11 uppers?
I called Lage yesterday with some questions about compatibility/anything I should look out for because the whole point of me buying the M11/9 is to run one of their uppers on it. Richard said to stay away from the sten converted Macs, so I'm assuming they don't work with the Max-11.
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As I understand it..... you want a receiver that will take Lage's modified Suomi mags. Suomi mags are great mags (36rd double-feed and easy to load). I am thinking the regular M11/9 magwell works, but maybe VegasSMG will verify. I know VegasSMG well and consider him a GOOD friend. He knows the M11/9 very well (along with many other FAs).
True, since I am not in the market for another FA, I guess I am behind the times on current prices.....
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True, since I am not in the market for another FA, I guess I am behind the times on current prices.....
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325 Posts
The MAX-11 will function with the Sten Mag conversion, but it may not be as reliable. Personally, I'd pass on any Sten mag conversion but that's me. Additionally most new uppers and products are geared toward the OEM magwell guns so you may be left behind with a Sten mag converted gun.
The standard zytel magwell will accept the modified Soumi mags. Unfortunately Richard is no longer offering the double feed uppers that make use of these mags so it's a moot point. He ran into feeding problems after he began production so he abandoned the project.
Sten mag conversions gained popularity during the AWB, (Assault Weapon Ban). With lots of new guns still unsold and Sten mags selling for a mere one to two bucks each, it made since. Today's Sten mag prices don't make as much since after you factor in the price of mag well conversion and re-park job unless you already own a pile of good Sten mags. If you start with 40 Sten mags, you may only have half that work OK in your gun.
There are other magazine options ranging from modified Argentine PAM-2 mags and Madsen mags to factory zytels so the Sten mag conversion isn't as popular as it once was. People are rediscovering the Sten mag conversion BUT for different reasons today. the recent advent of 7.62x25 conversions have made this conversion popular once again. The rear spine of the Sten mag is removed and re welded to make room for the cheap but longer Tokarev round.
Anyway, front to back so back, the STEN magwell is longer than original magwell so the rear of the mag sits very close to the bolt when the gun is cocked. This means the bolt gets a shorter running start at the cartridge. *(remember this gun fires from an open bolt!) With a magazine full of 9mm, there may not be enough energy to strip, chamber, and fire the first few rounds.
The standard zytel magwell will accept the modified Soumi mags. Unfortunately Richard is no longer offering the double feed uppers that make use of these mags so it's a moot point. He ran into feeding problems after he began production so he abandoned the project.
Sten mag conversions gained popularity during the AWB, (Assault Weapon Ban). With lots of new guns still unsold and Sten mags selling for a mere one to two bucks each, it made since. Today's Sten mag prices don't make as much since after you factor in the price of mag well conversion and re-park job unless you already own a pile of good Sten mags. If you start with 40 Sten mags, you may only have half that work OK in your gun.
There are other magazine options ranging from modified Argentine PAM-2 mags and Madsen mags to factory zytels so the Sten mag conversion isn't as popular as it once was. People are rediscovering the Sten mag conversion BUT for different reasons today. the recent advent of 7.62x25 conversions have made this conversion popular once again. The rear spine of the Sten mag is removed and re welded to make room for the cheap but longer Tokarev round.
Anyway, front to back so back, the STEN magwell is longer than original magwell so the rear of the mag sits very close to the bolt when the gun is cocked. This means the bolt gets a shorter running start at the cartridge. *(remember this gun fires from an open bolt!) With a magazine full of 9mm, there may not be enough energy to strip, chamber, and fire the first few rounds.
Thanks everyone for the invaluable advice.
I wound up going with a used M11/9 and am already on Richard's waiting list for a Max-11 and a .22 conversion. I'm buying the gun from Larry Lasco. He test fired two this weekend and he's sending me a range report. Then the wait begins!
I wound up going with a used M11/9 and am already on Richard's waiting list for a Max-11 and a .22 conversion. I'm buying the gun from Larry Lasco. He test fired two this weekend and he's sending me a range report. Then the wait begins!
I've already got an NFA trust set up for my suppressors, so I'm set to go there.
I paid 3200. Granted I didn't look for weeks on end, but I looked hard and couldn't get under 3000. I read somewhere that when it comes to transferable machine guns "You don't pay too much, you just buy too late".
The gun is all original - no converted magwell or anything.
I paid 3200. Granted I didn't look for weeks on end, but I looked hard and couldn't get under 3000. I read somewhere that when it comes to transferable machine guns "You don't pay too much, you just buy too late".
The gun is all original - no converted magwell or anything.
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my uncle bought a colt mfg 16, 2 converted norinco ak's , a mac11 and a 1919 for 2200 minus the tax back in 82' when a local sot went out of business, I have offered him is money back many times but he refuses for some reason :scratch:
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