Feedback Thread 1-29-2011 22F-Class Shoot

I know that all hardcore competition shooters will have their rifles in match condition prior to any competition; however, I would like to see anyone willing to come out a shoot be given a fair advantage – thus possibly increasing our participation in this event.

Here is something I am considering after observing several shooters yesterday having a problem “getting on target”. Instead of having two targets with a sighter box at the top, we actually have 3 targets per string of 20. The first target would be for your sighter rounds and the other two for scoring. We had some shooters who did not know where their shots were going because of the small area used for the sighters. Also, this should eliminate the issue of sighter rounds going into the scoring rings below the sighter box.

Also, I would propose placing no limit on the number of sighter rounds fired or when they could be fired. However, the time limit would not change for shooting your sighter rounds and completing the 20 rounds for record. It would stay at 20 minutes. If you elected to shoot 25 sighter rounds onto your sighter target – OK; however, that goes into your 20 minutes to shoot the 20 rounds for score onto the other two targets.

We also had a couple issues with optics yesterday. I would propose permitting the shooter to go back to the sighter target at anytime during the firing string. However, they can have no more that 10 shots in each scoring target. Example: You are shooting the scoring target for score and have a couple rounds go haywire … you will be permitted to go back to your sighter target and shoot it to check for a problem and/or make the necessary adjustments. You can then go back to your scoring target and complete your 10 rounds for score. Of course, ALL of this must take place within your allotted time of 20 minutes per string. If more than 10 shots are within the scoring target, the highest number hit will be disallowed.

This proposal would not slow down the match and would permit shooters a little flexibility …. Give me your Pros and Cons!!

GunOneDown said:

Downside to unlimited sighters= none
I just don't think it needed. If it is allowed though, there will be some timers coming out and some shooters will not finish a string.

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Thanks - I can not think of any downside to permitting unlimited sighters. It is my goal to increase participation in this event and remove any obstacle that may hinder participation as long as it does not affect other participants or prolong the match. Most folks who own a basic 22 have them sighted for 40-50 yrds and they have not taken the time and put in the effort to try to shoot out to 100yrds. I do not want a firing line composed of "seasoned competitive shooters". I want a mixture of experiences so that the newer shooters can actually learn from the experienced shooters. My limited experience shows that new shooters never used their 20 minutes per string; however, it they do not get their 20 scoring shoots completed within the 20 minutes, they suffer the penalty.

I still like the idea of having 3 targets per string with one dedicated as a sighter target. I was the RSO during our 1st relay on Saturday and had 4 of the 13 shooters actually put their first sighter round into the scoring rings. It seems to be a common occurrence for the 1st round from a lot of rifles to hit low from a cold bore. I shot in relay 2 and my first sighter round went into the scoring rings. The use of a separate target would serve to make this issue irrelevant and would not take anything away from the conduct of the match.

GunOneDown said:

, but a spotter for every shot would bother me. Spotters could be allowed for juniors and Shooter class and I'd just deal with all the talking.

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I have not given much thought to the issue of coaches and spotters. It would hard for me not to allow coaches and/or spotters for any junior shooter or any shooter shooting optics of 12X or less. I think I will put the question out to the participants at our next match.

Please – let me hear more about what ya’ll think!!

PhillipM said:

[I really liked the 300 meter, or was it yard, target reduced for 100 yards for international competition brought out after the match.

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I like it also …. My only concern is using it on the Center Range – can we get enough elevation on the target stands for safety. Actually was thinking about trying to use it horizontally rather than vertically. Playing with the idea! The up side is that these are commercially available and would not require the printing of targets prior to each match. Believe me that is an hassle and expense we could do without. We have been fortunate that X-Ring and Nonnieselman has helped us out with this; however, we can not continue to have them supply us with targets!!

M1GarandFan said:

What about having a set amount of time to get sighters in, say 5 minutes? I believe a separate target for sighters would be great. We allow 10 sighters before each highpower match and usually get all sighters done in about 20 minutes on average, I think (that includes walking down to the 200 yard targets and marking the first five shots then walking back up to the firing line).

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Really do not want to add anymore time to the match. The proposal of unlimited sighters requires the shooter to accomplish all his/her sighters within the permitted 20 minutes. This adds no more time to the match and does not require any additional downrange time.

jbpmidas said:

I believe unlimited sighters could be allowed for new shooters. Also, coaches, or spotters, should be allowed for 12x and under on sighters.

On the unlimited sighters, I just believe it takes away from the advantage of people who have taken the time to come prepared. SGMJody and I took the time to prepare and practice. We knew when we got to the match, we were ready!

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I wish to keep it as simple as possible. To permit only the new shooters unlimited sighters would require someone making the determination of who is or what is “new shooter,” i.e., would a past NRA small bore champion be classified as new shooter if he has never shot our match before? Would past experience level count? We would have to have a completely new set of rules for determining who was “new” and who was not. With new participants at every match, this would add additional time and effort. Additionally, someone would have to make sure everyone abides by the rule that ONLY new shooters will be permitted unlimited sighters. Will there be a penalty if someone shoots more than they are suppose to, etc, etc, etc? Keep it as simple as possible is my thought – allow everyone or no one.

I really do not see how unlimited sighters would take away the advantage for people who have taken the time to come prepared. Those who take the time to come prepared will be better prepared than those who do not and it will certainly show. The unlimited sighters would surely be a disadvantage to those who shoot a lot of sighters because it takes away from their total time permitted to complete the firing string and they may have to hurry to finish the firing string. I also believe that once they shoot one match with their rifle of choice using the unlimited sighter rule, they will not need and will not take as many sighters at the next match unless they make some changes to the rifle / scope, etc. Not everyone has the opportunity to go to the range everyday like some of us. Many of the participants currently involved may not have the opportunity to put in quality trigger time between matches. To some it is an issue of time, and/or expense and to others it is just not a priority. However, all want to come out and have a “fun” time on the range. Additionally, everyone would have the opportunity for unlimited sighters; thus no one would be at a disadvantage.

Here are a few of my thoughts regarding these matches. The “competition” aspect of this event is already compromised and is certainly not fair. We had shooters shooting everything from old Remington Nylon 66s to high dollar Anschutzs. Shooters used everything from Winchester/Federal Bulk 22 ammo to Eley 10X. At our second trial match we had a NightForce Scope on the line. Far from being a FAIR competition. As I stated in the shooter’s briefing, we do bill these events as a “competition,” but that is not the primary focus of the event. The primary focus is to enjoy yourself, have a fun day on the range, learn something new, and shoot a little better than last time. It is my goal to involve as many individuals as possible in these matches. They should not be saddled with a lot of rules; especially, those that inhibit their ability to do well. I DO want the scores to be as HIGH as possible for every participant – the higher the score a person can shoot, the more likely they are to return and do it again. If they can not get on paper in 5 rounds, they can not be expected to shoot well. However, once we get them “hooked,” most will take time to better prepare and some will actually go out a purchase a rifle strictly for this event. As these matches mature, we can certainly look at more stringent classes and rules. The goal for now is to encourage and not inhibit participation and “Grow” the event. If someone says to me they would like to come and participate but they only have X rifle with X scope and have not shot it in years – I will tell them to come on out, bring what you got, and we will take care of you!!

I do not think anyone would disagree with the fact that those participants who prepare, practice, and have good equipment will always be at the top of the leader board!!

I maybe somewhat over ambitious, but I would love to see this match spread to other clubs in the state and actually have a State Championship Match at the end of the year. However, we must GROW the interest in our event by encouraging participation in every way possible – and not inhibiting it.