Anyone here gone through the FFL process for doing business out of the home? I'm being told not to bother unless you have a store front, and other guys have told me it's no problem. I've just started to investigate this, but am thinking about going down this road.
FFL out of the home
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I know several people who have FFL's and do business (some of them a lot of business) out of their homes and have no store fronts. I'm not sure why anyone would say that it's a problem. A lot of folks who sell on the net these days are doing just that. I don't think you'd have any issue with it but that's strictly my opinion based on the fact that I see others doing it.
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Its tricky in your home. Its not hard to get, but you have to do some extra legwork. You cannot mix your personal guns and "company" guns. You will have to label your guns as personal, and keep them off your log.
One other problem is the ATF looks VERY hard at your business license. If you live in a residential area you cannot get a business license, because it is not zoned commercial. If you house is out in the county it will be much easier.
The next thing is most of the better distributors will not do business with you if you dont send in pics of a storefront.
It is a bit expensive and you need to have a plan. Do you want to be a dealer, 02 manufacturer, SOT payer and so on. Each of those choices has different costs and liabilities.
One other problem is the ATF looks VERY hard at your business license. If you live in a residential area you cannot get a business license, because it is not zoned commercial. If you house is out in the county it will be much easier.
The next thing is most of the better distributors will not do business with you if you dont send in pics of a storefront.
It is a bit expensive and you need to have a plan. Do you want to be a dealer, 02 manufacturer, SOT payer and so on. Each of those choices has different costs and liabilities.
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2,352 Posts
I had a FFl and work from home, internet and guns shows. I had no problem getting it, that was 10 to 15 years ago when I got mine. I wish I still had it now, but at the time I gave it up it was the right thing for me to do. I was worn down from all the travel I had to do to keep up with all the shows. Now the trading I do is for me not for profit. But I wish I had a ffl so I could still get those new guns at cost.
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You are correct, atf man who came to my house was George Bishop. He looked at everthing and we set around talking about regular guy stuff. I never forgot he talked to my daughter about the danger of her climbing up and down our gate that fence our horse in. Good Guy.
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Our inspector was really cool. Not what you expect. He is a life NRA member and a member of the sons of confederate veterans.
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Its a tricky one...I looked into it at one time...On top of dealing with the ATF, you might have local City ordinances against conducting such a business in your home....
Like I said I looked into it at one time and its a major hassle...
From what I've heard lately, the ATF is starting to turn the screws a little tighter on the Mom and Pop FFL's...
Besides, the money aint in guns any more...just the accessories
If I ever open a shop...it will be in the county....it will be at the range and I'll have plenty of knowledgeable gun counter help
Like I said I looked into it at one time and its a major hassle...
From what I've heard lately, the ATF is starting to turn the screws a little tighter on the Mom and Pop FFL's...
Besides, the money aint in guns any more...just the accessories
If I ever open a shop...it will be in the county....it will be at the range and I'll have plenty of knowledgeable gun counter help
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'Neck -- Can I come work for you? :lol:msredneck said:
You right -- seems that the BATF is starting to crack down on the in house business stuff ... at least that is what I have heard also. Unannounced visits, making sure EVERY t-is crossed and i-is dotted ....
I, too, had a license back in the '80s without a storefront ... very, very easy to get -- no visit just received it in the mail.
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Your zoning will play a big part. I live in the country and before the inspector came out he went to the courthouse to double check.
Distributors [there is a bunch] won't work with you without a tax id from the state to go with your ffl.
Everybody wants money. You pay for the ffl, you pay up front for the state tax [mine was $300], you pay for the county business license yearly [cost depends on inventory $$$].
If going to sell guns, know this. The bigger stores are in buying memberships with other stores. They can sell some weapons cheaper than you can buy them. You will also have to set up an account with distributors [net 30 or other] otherwise it's a $10 c.o.d. fee to go along with shipping. Markup is smaller on weapons than most people realize. Add the c.o.d. fee and xyz's place can sell the same weapon for less than you in some cases.
If you had said why you were thinking of an ffl. We could have given better answers. What is the intended business you will be doing out of your home?
Do you live inside city limits or incorporated area thats residential?
Not being nosey, but to give an honest answer it's things we would need to know.
I went through all this last year. Be glad to help if I can.
Distributors [there is a bunch] won't work with you without a tax id from the state to go with your ffl.
Everybody wants money. You pay for the ffl, you pay up front for the state tax [mine was $300], you pay for the county business license yearly [cost depends on inventory $$$].
If going to sell guns, know this. The bigger stores are in buying memberships with other stores. They can sell some weapons cheaper than you can buy them. You will also have to set up an account with distributors [net 30 or other] otherwise it's a $10 c.o.d. fee to go along with shipping. Markup is smaller on weapons than most people realize. Add the c.o.d. fee and xyz's place can sell the same weapon for less than you in some cases.
If you had said why you were thinking of an ffl. We could have given better answers. What is the intended business you will be doing out of your home?
Do you live inside city limits or incorporated area thats residential?
Not being nosey, but to give an honest answer it's things we would need to know.
I went through all this last year. Be glad to help if I can.
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I'd like to hear from some Mom and Pop's that had FFL's and gave em up...
I support the Mom and Pop dealer all I can...I'd like to see them stay around...I hate going to most gun counters and having to listen to all the BS from the counter help.
Captain-03...you r hired...Think you could manage some Hooter's quality counter help?...
I support the Mom and Pop dealer all I can...I'd like to see them stay around...I hate going to most gun counters and having to listen to all the BS from the counter help.
Captain-03...you r hired...Think you could manage some Hooter's quality counter help?...
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From what I understand it's still possible just more difficult to have a home FFL. Like Dock Rocker said, it will depend a lot on zoning issues. If you live in an urban setting you can forget it. Home FFLs in the back woods aren't frowned upon quite as much.
There is one thing to consider, though. When you have your home FFL you basically transform your home into your business. This means that BATF can come into your home at any time without a warrant. You're going to be giving up some of your rights.
What about an out building with a separate address? This would solve the problems with the BATF entering your home.
There is one thing to consider, though. When you have your home FFL you basically transform your home into your business. This means that BATF can come into your home at any time without a warrant. You're going to be giving up some of your rights.
What about an out building with a separate address? This would solve the problems with the BATF entering your home.
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internet website can be considered a "storefront" but like others said it depends on your zoning. ellett brothers is a PITA to deal with if you dont have some sort of store front. truely the big three RSR, Sportsouth, and Ellett bro will turn your application down now days unless you got some sort of pull with them.
I have a few reasons for wanting this FFL, number one is the ability to purchase out of state when I'm traveling to collector and gun shows without all the hassle of shipping back to my state etc. I already have a tax id and LLC set up for one of my other businesses, so I can roll this in without a hitch according to my accountant. I would like to do some private sales to a limited clientele and be able to entertain spending some time selling at shows. I do realize that dealing with wholesalers and manufacturers can be a pain, and there will certainly be the issue of the minimum order, but in general, I think I can afford this. I do not live in the city limits so I don't think there will be any zoning issues to contend with. I won't be heart broken if this doesn't happen, but I just think it's something I want to do. I'm not worried about record keeping or paying taxes, I already do more than my share of that, so this at least will be something I love at the end of the red tape every quarter. Thanks for the insight and sharing your experiences, I really appreciate it. I think these forums are the greatest source of real world info.BeauBeaux said:
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Okay.... here goes..... my .02
I applied for my FFL the day I turned 21 and I am 46 now. I just called it quits in December and turned in my records. Like most others have already said, it use to be a bit more 'lax' you could say.
Here is what I "learned" from the agent in December. Keep in mind that his answers are the "official ATF" answers that they are told to give I am sure, and possibly not quite truthful in real life. (Just my opinion)
And let me preface by saying this agent (name withheld on purpose) was extremely nice and courteous. I truly enjoyed visiting him and he was very helpful.
The ATF isn't cracking down anymore on residence based versus storefront, although there are a few more 'requirements' than use to be.... for everyone. Locks on EVERYthing you ship, Specified hours, Storage, Show intent to make a profit ( a real business instead of "I just wanna get guns cheap for me and my buds" ) are just a few.
I don't know that the actual ATF checks your zoning, but many years back in Jackson there was a collaboration between Jackson and the ATF. They contacted FFL holders that were in residential zones and told them they had to relinquish records and cease doing business. My brother lost his FFL at that time. You would be shocked to learn of who initiated that, although I won't say because I have no proof. Walter Birdsong told me and I have never known him to have been wrong about something he did speak of, or lie. I sure do miss the visits and talks when I'd go there.... ok, back on track here....
Points:
* You must have business hours on your application and you had better be adhering to them. You can no longer put "by appointment only" on the application.
* You have just opened up your home to the ATF, a visit at any point in time basically, although your normal business hours are what they adhere to 99.9% I believe. I don't see them bustin' in at 0100 to check your records unless you have given them cause. But you better be there on those hours listed on your application.
* You are not going to make a lot of money on guns. With online places like Bud's and sales from Gunbroker, Gunsamerica and sometimes even from a FORUM.... I ended up handling more transfers than anything.
* You will accumulate more new 'friends' than you realize, many expecting something for nothing. LMAO But you DO actually meet a lot of cool people too and make new friendships.
* You will be surprised at how much time it will take out of your life over the years. Looking up prices, researching something for a customer, on the phone with people constantly...etc etc (Maybe not everyone but it did me)
* You had also better make sure you DO check your zones and such things in your location. Get your Tax ID's (which I believe now costs you 500.00 for a bond if you conduct business out of your residence in MS) and anything else required to do business from your location. A good friend of mine opened up a shop some time ago, and if I remember correctly they had to get their tax id's etc before getting their FFL. I can't be sure but I believe that is what he told me during all of that. Again, not positive on that one.
* If you choose NOT to get a tax ID and take that chance, a lot of wholesale places will not do business with you anymore. Thus limiting your resources. And if they (MS) catch you... you will probably pay taxes on everything you have moved at full pop retail value (since you can't prove otherwise unless you have records, which I doubt if you didn't get an ID anyway) and fines to boot.
* Now you get to file taxes and fool with all that every year for your new business.
Wow... I just read all of that again and it sounds depressing. Didn't mean to be so negative but just know what is in store and do it correctly. You will be fine if that is done.
I applied for my FFL the day I turned 21 and I am 46 now. I just called it quits in December and turned in my records. Like most others have already said, it use to be a bit more 'lax' you could say.
Here is what I "learned" from the agent in December. Keep in mind that his answers are the "official ATF" answers that they are told to give I am sure, and possibly not quite truthful in real life. (Just my opinion)
And let me preface by saying this agent (name withheld on purpose) was extremely nice and courteous. I truly enjoyed visiting him and he was very helpful.
The ATF isn't cracking down anymore on residence based versus storefront, although there are a few more 'requirements' than use to be.... for everyone. Locks on EVERYthing you ship, Specified hours, Storage, Show intent to make a profit ( a real business instead of "I just wanna get guns cheap for me and my buds" ) are just a few.
I don't know that the actual ATF checks your zoning, but many years back in Jackson there was a collaboration between Jackson and the ATF. They contacted FFL holders that were in residential zones and told them they had to relinquish records and cease doing business. My brother lost his FFL at that time. You would be shocked to learn of who initiated that, although I won't say because I have no proof. Walter Birdsong told me and I have never known him to have been wrong about something he did speak of, or lie. I sure do miss the visits and talks when I'd go there.... ok, back on track here....
Points:
* You must have business hours on your application and you had better be adhering to them. You can no longer put "by appointment only" on the application.
* You have just opened up your home to the ATF, a visit at any point in time basically, although your normal business hours are what they adhere to 99.9% I believe. I don't see them bustin' in at 0100 to check your records unless you have given them cause. But you better be there on those hours listed on your application.
* You are not going to make a lot of money on guns. With online places like Bud's and sales from Gunbroker, Gunsamerica and sometimes even from a FORUM.... I ended up handling more transfers than anything.
* You will accumulate more new 'friends' than you realize, many expecting something for nothing. LMAO But you DO actually meet a lot of cool people too and make new friendships.
* You will be surprised at how much time it will take out of your life over the years. Looking up prices, researching something for a customer, on the phone with people constantly...etc etc (Maybe not everyone but it did me)
* You had also better make sure you DO check your zones and such things in your location. Get your Tax ID's (which I believe now costs you 500.00 for a bond if you conduct business out of your residence in MS) and anything else required to do business from your location. A good friend of mine opened up a shop some time ago, and if I remember correctly they had to get their tax id's etc before getting their FFL. I can't be sure but I believe that is what he told me during all of that. Again, not positive on that one.
* If you choose NOT to get a tax ID and take that chance, a lot of wholesale places will not do business with you anymore. Thus limiting your resources. And if they (MS) catch you... you will probably pay taxes on everything you have moved at full pop retail value (since you can't prove otherwise unless you have records, which I doubt if you didn't get an ID anyway) and fines to boot.
* Now you get to file taxes and fool with all that every year for your new business.
Wow... I just read all of that again and it sounds depressing. Didn't mean to be so negative but just know what is in store and do it correctly. You will be fine if that is done.
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