[Duhbob]

Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

My flat nose RCBS ww 147gr.bullets look great and fly like a tipped pass from a bad thrower. I had temporarily lost my source for the functional/useable 136gr rnl bullets I am using now. So I had to do something...I ordered the $67 mold and cranked out 1,000 lead bullets...They suck!
I got my 136gr. source back so I can gladly say I am ok again BUT STUCK with a mold that I can't use.
The problem is KEYHOLING even at 20'. I tried N-340' N-350 and aa#7 also .356, and.355...nothing helps not lighter/heavier crimp or long or short OAL. I am loading pretty light stuff, like 133 power factor. Who wants to chime-in, anybody who loads lead 9mm from wheel weights ??

 

[Beladran]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

Keyhole n at 20 feet? Wow you got issues!!! ASsuming the bullet is not out of round .... I might suggest a max charge of bullseye or 231

 

[SubGunFan]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

Two things to look at...............

1. Are the bullets undersized? .355" or .354"

2. Some makes of barrel just don't shoot lead bullets worth a toot....

.

 

[Duhbob]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

I tried .355 and.356 and still had the same results. Also, I even bought a storm lake barrel and that did not cure the tumble!
BTW the SpringfieldXD 9mm tactical 5" (stock barrel) gun is the one I'm talking about and it is running perfectly now with round nose lead, tapered base, 136.5 grain bullets from wheel weights with 6.5 grains of Accurate #7 a light crimp and an OAL of 1.080

 

[Duhbob]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

Keyhole n at 20 feet? Wow you got issues!!! ASsuming the bullet is not out of round .... I might suggest a max charge of bullseye or 231

I did a lot of trial and error since I first discovered the tumbling/keyhole problem, but the first lead load I ever ran was 4.3gr. of HP38(W-231)behind a tumble lube Lee 124 gr. bullet. These days I use a RCBS lube sizer and a single groove 136.5 gr. round nose bullet
but I'm still miffed about the 147 gr. flat nose not working with Vitavori powder, etc... :scratch:

 

[Beladran]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

i loaded up a bunch of 38spl with VV and was not real happy with the results.. i had lots of unburnt powder left in the barrel. I never had that kinda problem with bullseye or 231. what size do they drop out of the mold?

 

[Duhbob]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

.3565-.357

 

[moredes]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

No offense, but have you slugged the barrel? I'd also suggest miking the bullet across its' other axis and through a couple 'rotations' to "prove" the bullets are round.

 

[Duhbob]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

Thanks, & Yes I slugged the barrel, which partly made me replace it with a new Storm Lake barrel. The slug would go in hard-to-push, then get easy mid-way then push hard again at the front end. The mike said the barrel was at .355 in the outer lands. But here is the kicker. The new barrel sends the 147 flat nose tumbling too. & It slugged perfect!
Next question: do you look for out-of-round pretty regularly or just when an issue like mine shows up...and should I Mike it before lube sizing or after, or both. I'm going to bed. But sometime manyana I'm gonna mike (and rotate) a bunch of these and see if that is it... :scratch:

 

[miker84]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

Is it relatively accurate, or are they flying all over the place?

 

[Duhbob]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

From 20ft (while chronographing) I noticed more rectangle than round holes (shooting the Flat nose lead147gr.), but the group was 2-4 inches. Not acceptable from that close!
By comparison, the good rounds ( round nose lead135gr.)were way tighter, more like 1-2" at 20' and 2-4" at 25yards...from a five inch barrel, that aint great either but I blame the shooter.
But from 25 yards the flat nose (flippers/tumblers) are wildly inaccurate ...not grouping.

 

[Beladran]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

hmm are you using straight WW's? To me if they are dropping from the mold at .357 and your sizing them down to .356. thats not much. you need to spike the mix with some extra tin to try and get them to at least .358
More tin and antimony makes them drop bigger and harder
More lead makes them softer and smaller but heavier

 

[Duhbob]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

To every 6-8 pounds of ingots(ww) I'm adding a 6inch piece of lead-free solder(95%tin) and another strip of harder lead-free solder which has 5% antimony. My other mold (same alloy) is dropping .358, but it is a whole nutha story.135gr.ones on the right hand side

 

[Beladran]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

im still gonna opt for maybe more tin.. Your bottom right bullet the bevel base is not sharp and defined.. either mold was not to temp, its a glare, or you need more tin to get better fill out. Your grease groves look good on the otherones but it couldnt hurt to just double up on your tin and see what happens.

 

[Duhbob]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

check :thanks:
But the bevel base shoots perfect.(and you're right that is a cold-mold wrinkly mess on the right)
It's those flat nose Ba$*&#ds on the lefty-side that fly crooked. :evil:
(lil political-jab to the neck there for leftyz)

 

[Reloader]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

I had trouble with my 124 grain Lee mold bullets keyholing also. I finally figured out it was my velocity that mattered when keyholing. I dropped down in velocity and it stopped the problem. I use hardball mixture, 92% lead, 2% tin and 6% antimony. Try slowing them down and see if it helps. I use these for practice so I'm not worried about power factor.

 

[moredes]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

hmm are you using straight WW's? To me if they are dropping from the mold at .357 and your sizing them down to .356. thats not much. you need to spike the mix with some extra tin to try and get them to at least .358
More tin and antimony makes them drop bigger and harder
More lead makes them softer and smaller but heavier

I agree with this completely. I mike after I lube and size; I cast .003" over, and size to .001" over, and that's the regimen I generally stuck with unless I couldn't find reasonably-priced molds in my desired size.

The range of my ratio of lead to tin was more towards 93-7% or 95-5%. I was never real precise with my ratio--I only stopped adding tin when I was absolutely positively sure I'd added enough to easily surpass 5% tin. My bullets were really hard and usually light, falling short by 1/2 - 1gr per 100gr bullet. Then again, all I used them for was target-shooting or steel plate, not hunting.

Slowing them down might help, too if you don't wanna change your tin content. Mine was high because I wanted at least 900fps out of my bullets.

to miking and measuring--I only ever checked my bullets for roundness when I took delivery and used a new mold for the first time or did the same with a new sizing die.

 

[Duhbob]

Re: Keyholing: 9mm lead 147gr. rcbs flat nose/flat base

Thanks for the excelent food for thought I haven't sold the 147 flat nose (flat-base) mold yet, it's still a good heavy bullet that jus feels good to
shoot. BTW, The bullet roundness is near perfect.
When time permits I will keep messing with it.
But for now, my 136 grain round nose (bevel-base) are ideal/accurate for USPSA
production with 6.5gr Accurate#7 (no keyholes) and I am getting a 133 power factor...the
gun works well too if the shooter shoots it well.
Bob