I've been trying to resist falling into the high end 1911 addiction by surrounding myself with Sigs and the like but I'm slowly losing the battle. I spent an hour on the phone with "crazy John" out in Idaho at 1911 heaven and I'm strongly leaning toward a Les Baer. Any thoughts or experiences would be helpful.
Les Baer ?
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I'd really like to have a Wilson just for the semi-local support of a good company. If I were going to spend that much though I'd rather have one of the big names build me exactly what I wanted.
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Les Baer 1911s
Over a decade ago, I had Billy Tierce build me a new all stainless .45 using Les Baer
matched slide and frame in stainless and at the time he wasn't making his own small
parts such as pins and springs,etc. One of my cousins' wife had him build another just
like mine as a Christmas present for my cousin and wow, was he ever pleased on that
morning. I used Ed Brown "Hardcore" parts with the exception of a magazine well from Smith and Alexander and grips from Kim Ahrends, sights from Novak. Both of our .45s have digested
literally thousands of rounds since then and they're still both so tight they're almost
hard to field strip. Baer formerly used Ed Brown slides and frames to build his and to
me that's a significant recommendation. A friend of mine owns a Baer built Baer stainless
that is essentially identical to the one Billy built for me and I've let him examine and
shoot mine and he can't tell a bit of difference aside from the lack of markings on the
slide on mine. In my opinion, there are 3 tiers of 1911s, Baer, then in the 2nd tier
Brown, Wilson, EGW, Rock River Arms and then the factory made semi customs like
Kimbers and the better Springfield Armory guns. Actually there should be a 4th tier
when I think about it, the true factory stuff like Taurus, Colt, S&W(the highest form
of flattery indeed IS imitation especially when your oldest rival in the business does
finally build a clone) and even Remington now. Baers are admittedly pricey but so worth the money you DO get what you pay for.
Over a decade ago, I had Billy Tierce build me a new all stainless .45 using Les Baer
matched slide and frame in stainless and at the time he wasn't making his own small
parts such as pins and springs,etc. One of my cousins' wife had him build another just
like mine as a Christmas present for my cousin and wow, was he ever pleased on that
morning. I used Ed Brown "Hardcore" parts with the exception of a magazine well from Smith and Alexander and grips from Kim Ahrends, sights from Novak. Both of our .45s have digested
literally thousands of rounds since then and they're still both so tight they're almost
hard to field strip. Baer formerly used Ed Brown slides and frames to build his and to
me that's a significant recommendation. A friend of mine owns a Baer built Baer stainless
that is essentially identical to the one Billy built for me and I've let him examine and
shoot mine and he can't tell a bit of difference aside from the lack of markings on the
slide on mine. In my opinion, there are 3 tiers of 1911s, Baer, then in the 2nd tier
Brown, Wilson, EGW, Rock River Arms and then the factory made semi customs like
Kimbers and the better Springfield Armory guns. Actually there should be a 4th tier
when I think about it, the true factory stuff like Taurus, Colt, S&W(the highest form
of flattery indeed IS imitation especially when your oldest rival in the business does
finally build a clone) and even Remington now. Baers are admittedly pricey but so worth the money you DO get what you pay for.
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465 Posts
gunbroker has good deals on used high end 1911s check the ed browns too.
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I would get the world famous Bob Jones to build a Caspian with all the best parts. He'll use a Kart barrel and you wouldn't believe what you'd get for your $$$. He's right here in Mississippi.pathman said:
"...you get more for the money than with Brown or Wilson."pathman said:
Hmmm.... a lot of Baer fanatics claim they get a better 'bang-for-the-buck' value-- but that's because the Baers cost less outright. Wilsons and Browns are finished better than Baers. Tweakin' accuracy and fitment quality is like getting another 1/2 second off that quarter mile dragster--it's exponentially more expensive the closer one gets to "perfection". Browns and Wilsons are delivered as ready-to-shoot, right out of the box with a "no excuses" warranty. Baer makes the same claim, but if you peruse the major 1911 forums, you'll find that his is the least-favored warranty program of the Big Three. Les' CS reputation is certainly no peer to Brown and Wilson amongst those who've owned all three and needed service. It makes sense--he can't afford it to be at his prices.
His guns are extremely tight-fitted--he wisely (and cleverly, I might add) claims the lack of finishing--i. e., the tightness of his guns' fitment--are a feature of his builds. Anyone who understands the mechanics of the 1911 knows that barrel-to-slide-to-bushing fit is imperative, accounting for ~95% of a 1911's accuracy. The slide-to-frame fit only adds 5%. As Ed Brown says, "it doesn't have to be tight--it has to be right. Any tighter than zero movement is useless." Testimony to this is the accuracy guarantee from all 3 houses. Brown guarantees 1-1/2" at 50yd with any of their guns. They're never nearly as tight as a NIB Baer. Yet the Baer 1-1/2" accuracy guarantee costs an additional $300 IF the gun is a 5" or larger--tight delivery and all; all bets are off on any Baer shorter than 5"--he just can't afford to accurize shorter guns for the prices he charges. Wilson guarantees his 5" guns for 1" @ 25yd, which falls at least to 2" @ 50yd (his 4.0" guns are guaranteed at 1-1/2" @ 25yd). Apples to apples, there's little money saved and much more warranty service to be gained if the same 1-1/2" gun is purchased from Wilson or Brown. And few who've seen them side- by-side-by-side will claim Baers are better-finished than a Wilson or Brown.
Does anyone really think Les Baer can put out a balls-to-balls comparable product guaranteeing the same accuracy, having the same quality of fit and finish, and touting the same stellar warranty-service reputation as Wilson (and to a lesser extent, Brown) for ~20% less cost?? Think it through.
Read up thoroughly on the three factories on the 1911 forums. I think the favoritism for one brand to another is highly prejudiced by the (prospective) owner's budget, but be extremely careful if you're considering a Baer shorter than the standard 5". The reputation of his shorter guns is dubious at best. Those owners who've had problems have purchased a money pit. Here are just a few examples that popped up with an easy Google search:
http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7769
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=114529&highlight=commanche+repair
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=243229&highlight=baer+repair&page=2
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62842&highlight=safari+arms
Read between the lines... if you've got a problem with your Baer, getting a satisfactory FACTORY response and service you'd be delighted with is a 50/50 proposition. But it's a crap shoot. A Baer purchase can save a bundle up front if you luck out and you get a fully functional and reliable Baer. The odds are with you, probably better than 80/20, in spite of forum feedbacks.
If you want *real* accuracy--say, 5/8" at 25yd with self-defense ammo, you'll have to move up a level to the true custom smiths. I dunno anything about the local 'smiths... but CT Brian, Ted Yost, and John Harrison can put those numbers up with their Colt Commanders (4-1/4" barrels). But then, you're talkin' big money, now.
Another thought... have you ever held two of the three simultaneously? That is, have you had a Baer side-by-side with either a Wilson or Brown? You say you've been surrounding yourself with SIGS. Bring your SIG to a face-to-face comparison with a Baer. They're not *that* different in quality. Oh sure, the Baer fans will claim you're slumming with such a comparison, but for accuracy, fitment, and quality of parts, the newest versions of the SIG 1911s are just as good. Sure, they ain't as "tight" as Baer, but no one else is... yet they all can shoot to a Premier II's factory accuracy guarantee, unless you pay the extra $300 for the Baer 1-1/2" accuracy package.
If you want a real custom gun, I sure wouldn't recommend Baer, and I might not recommend Brown either; only the Wilson Super Grade class can match the true custom 'smiths for quality, and at that, you still are restricted to Wilson ergonomics, tastes and selected options. Yeah, I know, there'll be the Brown fans who'll claim his flagship Classic Custom is Wilson's flagship equal, but I've held them both side/side, and sold the Brown as second place. I'd search out a private custom pistolsmith. No matter who you choose, you'll pay some portion towards the 'name' brand, and you'll be in for a long wait...
If you want a real custom gun, I sure wouldn't recommend Baer, and I might not recommend Brown either; only the Wilson Super Grade class can match the true custom 'smiths for quality, and at that, you still are restricted to Wilson ergonomics, tastes and selected options. Yeah, I know, there'll be the Brown fans who'll claim his flagship Classic Custom is Wilson's flagship equal, but I've held them both side/side, and sold the Brown as second place. I'd search out a private custom pistolsmith. No matter who you choose, you'll pay some portion towards the 'name' brand, and you'll be in for a long wait...
Lots of strong opinions out there about 1911's, I kind of expected that. Truth is, I wouldn't know where to begin with a custom build, I'm simply not that knowledgeable about the high end components that go into these monster pistols. I'm looking for the best combination of performance and aesthetics in a pistol that I plan to shoot and shoot a lot. I'm not looking for the best showpiece or object of envy, but a pistol that I can grow old with and pass on to the kids. To be honest, I like the aesthetics of Ed Brown, but I'm really not sure which way to go between Baer, Brown or Wilson, I'm sure at some point during this quest I'll end up with all three, but it's not exactly like buying a couple of Rugers and a Glock. Crazy John at 1911 heaven makes a convincing argument for the Baers and he guarantees complete satisfaction. As Les Baer's largest retailer, he feels he's got the muscle to get any problem that might come solved quickly. Don't know what I'll end up with, but I appreciate all the feedback. I would like contact info for both of the smiths that were mentioned if anyone has time to PM them my way.
Found this stickied under gunsmiths:pathman said:
List of Good Gunsmith's you know:
Hinds Cty
1. Billy Tierce 4050 Jack Rd Utica Ms...closed Wed and Sun hrs 9 am - 6pm 601-885-9297
Also does Green -T and Black -T finishes beautiful
2. Robert Jones 2060 Alyce Dr Jackson, MS 601-372-7873 really really good S&W revolver trigger jobs...lots of work done for ICORE and USPSA shooters
Rankin Cty - Florence, MS
I have had Billy work on both a DW revo ( hot blue) and some light cleaning on a Parker Double Shotgun. He is good, he is slow.
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