[HerrZnk]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that a vertical grip attached to the front of an AR pistol somehow made the AR pistol an SBR. I don't have the patience to muddle through the landslide of stuff coming through search engines while trying to find a definitive answer and can't call BATFE until next week, so, if anyone has a definitive link, I'd really appreciate a response. This pistol is a dedicated pistol receiver, cannot accept a shoulder stock.
I'm thinking of the old HK SP5 which was basically a semi-auto version of the MPi5K (MaschinenPistole 5 Kurz) which had a vertical fore grip. At least the ones I saw back in the 1990s did. That wasn't considered an SBR.
Anyway, if anyone can point me to a definitive source so that I don't have to speak with the nice BATFE people (again), then Vielen Dank im Voraus, Thanks in Advance

 

[22lrfan]

https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download

 

[rigrat]

@onlymaroonmatters

 

[HerrZnk]

https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download

Thanks!
Reading this antiquated language :
ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.
"fired by the use of a single hand" makes me shake my head. Other than some cowboy action shooters, Bullseye pistol competitors, and a few other competitive shooters, who shoots a handgun "by the use of a single hand"? You certainly won't see most action pistol or 3-gun competitors shooting their handguns "by the use of a single hand".
But I digress, my question has been answered. Again thanks for the link.

 

[onlymaroonmatters]

At least 26" OAL and you can. Measure from end of barrel, or if muzzle device is permanently attached from the end of it, to the end of the buffer tube (not the brace).
It's not considered a "handgun" then, just a firearm.

 

[Jarhead5811]

It’s all arbitrary BS. Damn the BATFE Revenuers.

 

[jakeg823]

At least 26" OAL and you can. Measure from end of barrel, or if muzzle device is permanently attached from the end of it, to the end of the buffer tube (not the brace).
It's not considered a "handgun" then, just a firearm.

I have an ATF graphic saved somewhere that shows what is and is not ok. If I can find it, I’ll post it, but what OMM says is spot on. Over 26” is a “firearm,” not a “rifle” or “pistol.”

That said, if you have multiple ARs, like most of us do, it’s probably worth it to keep at least one SBRed lower around, just in case a current or future POTUS decides to ban more accessories via executive fiat.

 

[jakeg823]

It’s all arbitrary BS. Damn the BATFE Revenuers.

They haven’t been tarred and feathered lately and it shows.

 

[patchz]

Thanks!
Reading this antiquated language :
ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.
"fired by the use of a single hand" makes me shake my head. Other than some cowboy action shooters, Bullseye pistol competitors, and a few other competitive shooters, who shoots a handgun "by the use of a single hand"? You certainly won't see most action pistol or 3-gun competitors shooting their handguns "by the use of a single hand".
But I digress, my question has been answered. Again thanks for the link.

That has been my take on it for a good while. I'm thinking some organization (NRA, etc.) should file a suit against ATF requiring a new ruling. I rarely shoot one handed unless required to do so by some external affect, including requalifying for a permit (LE) or practice for incapacitation of support or shooting hand.

 

[jakeg823]

If you can’t get it saved or zoomed in enough to suit you, message me and I’ll send it to you via email or something.

ETA: thought this was an ATF guide, but doesn’t appear to be. Still a great reference though.

 

[rigrat]

Wow they are quite some pompus bastards aren't they. Pistol with rifle stock /buffer tube same area could be construed as constructive possession? Kinda like saying because one of them is a dick they are all gay.

 

[7557]

​

Remember, we are talkin' the feds here!

 

[jakeg823]

Wow they are quite some pompus bastards aren't they. Pistol with rifle stock /buffer tube same area could be construed as constructive possession? Kinda like saying because one of the is a dick they are all gay.

And the best part is they can change their mind any time!

 

[Henry Bowman]

I'm thinking of the old HK SP5 which was basically a semi-auto version of the MPi5K (MaschinenPistole 5 Kurz) which had a vertical fore grip

SP89: Sportpistole M1989. Semi-automatic only version of the MP5K designed for civilian use. It lacked a vertical foregrip to make it compliant with the National Firearms Act. It was made from 1989 to 1994.

I bought the SP89 as soon as it hit my town. I remember very clearly the fuss that was made when folks tried/started putting the vert grip on them and the ATF saying you would get your weewee slapped if you did so. I of course immediately installed one and carried it in a shoulder rig anyway. I won't say not to, but I would say don't carry it to a publik range if you do

 

[HerrZnk]

Wow they are quite some pompus bastards aren't they. Pistol with rifle stock /buffer tube same area could be construed as constructive possession? Kinda like saying because one of the is a dick they are all gay.

Or the old "if you own an AR and own a full-auto BCG you are in illegal possession of a machinegun" rule. Even if they are just inside your house somewhere. Even without a full auto sear, your lower is not drilled for full-auto pins, etc. People were arrested for such.
Being a government bureaucrat with superpowers to make up rules as they fall out of your a&& must be a very rewarding job.

 

[Jarhead5811]

They haven’t been tarred and feathered lately and it shows.

I’m fresh out of tar, I wonder what flexseal would do?

 

[jakeg823]

I’m fresh out of tar, I wonder what flexseal would do?

 

[jakeg823]

Also, keep in mind the atf changed their minds a while back about how they are measured. Basically, addressing how LAW Folders were making them more concealable. You now measure from the folded position. There should be several YouTube videos addressing the change.

this link provides a pretty good breakdown of the changes and a link to the opinion letter:
ATF Rescinds Prior Methods to Measure a Firearm’s Overall Length when Equipped with a Stabilizing Brace

 

[oldsalt]

Took all my verticals off for tactical simplicity thanks to John @ Boondocks...

 

[onlymaroonmatters]

Took all my verticals off for tactical simplicity thanks to John @ Boondocks...

To each their own